Pf2e electric arc

What I meant with Electric Arc as a direct comparison is that I have picked Arcane Tattoos as a level 1 Human Ancestry Feat, which grants me a cantrip (Electric Arc) as an Innate Arcane Cantrip. As you've specified, it could potentially do up to 10d4+MOD damage (I thought it was 3d4+MOD and an additional 1d4 every level until level 20, I might ...

20: Free- master cathartic, Sorcerer- Bloodline perfection. Ancestry: Gnome Sylph. 1- swift. 5- unexpected shift (themed as partially turning to air) 9- fortunate shift. 13- wings of air. 17- Eternal wings. Skills increases: I will likely be boosting arcana earlier then shown here, then retreating to make the build work. Traditions arcane, primal. Cast somatic, verbal. Range 30 feet; Targets 1 or 2 creatures. Saving Throw basic Reflex. An arc of lightning leaps from one target to another. You deal electricity damage equal to 1d4 plus your spellcasting ability modifier. Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 1d4. Core Rulebook (335) Electric Arc Cantrip 1. cantrip; concentrate; electricity; manipulate; Traditions arcane, primal. Cast. Range 30 feet Targets 1 or 2 creatures. Defense basic Reflex. An arc of lightning leaps from one target to another. Each target takes 2d4 electricity damage with a basic Reflex save. Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 1d4. Elemental ...Cantrip Deck (Full Pack) Item 1. SourceSecrets of Magic pg. 181 1.1 Price 20 gp This pack contains 24 cards—one of each cantrip in the Core Rulebook. Acid splash, chill touch, dancing lights, daze, detect magic, disrupt undead, divine lance, electric arc, forbidding ward, ghost sound, guidance, know direction, light, mage hand, message ...Expansive Spellstrike has a better payoff when you're using an AOE spell like fireball to hit multiple targets, but against a single target your average damage will almost always be better with Shocking Grasp. When you can afford a ring of wizardry I, grab it so you can cast true strike before using spellstrike. 9.A feat with this trait indicates a character's descendance from a particular type of creature. You can have only one lineage feat. You can select a lineage feat only at 1st level, and you can't retrain into or out of these feats. Born of a storm hag, you have one crystal-blue or rain-gray eye. You share your mother's power over wind and storm. About Press Copyright Contact us Creators Advertise Developers Terms Privacy Policy & Safety How YouTube works Test new features NFL Sunday Ticket Press Copyright ...

With the expected +4 ability modifier, Electric Loop deals 1d4+4 (avg. 6.5) damage to two creatures. You can reasonably expect to hit two creatures with a 15-foot cone, and Burning Hands cast at 1st level deals 2d6 damage (avg. 7). The damage gap is negligible and the range gap is massive.Welcome to my Deep Dive into the Bard Class of Pathfinder 2e! A staple class in any TTRPG for the past 20 years! How has Pathfinder 2nd Edition changed them?...View All Spells ». You generate an arc of lightning between two targets. The lightning deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level (maximum 15d6) to both targets and any creatures in a line connecting them. The spell fails if there is no line of effect between the targets. Lightning arc sets fire to combustibles and damages objects ... Description. Range 30 feet; Targets 1 or 2 creatures; Saving Throw basic Reflex; An arc of lightning leaps from one target to another. Applications You deal electricity damage equal to 1d4 plus your spellcasting ability modifier. The listed effect applies for every increment of levels by which the spell is heightened above its lowest spell level, and the benefit is cumulative. For example, fireball says “Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 2d6.”. Because fireball deals 6d6 fire damage at 3rd level, a 4th-level fireball would deal 8d6 fire damage, a 5th-level ...Electric Arc Cantrip 1. Cantrip Electricity Evocation. Traditions arcane, primal. Cast [two-actions] somatic, verbal. Range 30 feet; Targets 1 or 2 creatures. Saving Throw basic …If you want a proper gish Warpriest with a mix of martial and magical abilities, Gozreh makes for a decent option. You get the trident as a weapon, which is a solid and reliable option for sword-and-boarding, and also makes you look cool. You get lightning bolt at 5th level, which is a powerful blasting option which scales well.

EAvs2 means Electric Arc's average damage when there are two available targets in range, while EAvs1 is Electric Arc's average damage when there's only one target in range. Disrupt Undead Increased damage die (now deals 66% of EAvs2, 130% of EAvs1), now also applies enfeeble on a success to increase it's utility.Electric arc and a few others have "Basic Reflex / Will / Fortitude" in the saving throw section, so yes they do half damage on a save (they work exactly as basic saving throw spells). Spells and cantrips targeting AC do no damage on a low attack roll. ... I've made another pack of pf2e iconics in Dragon's Dogma 2 character editor 8. At level 3 it costs 60 gp, the price of a level 1 wand. And it allows any caster to cast Electric Arc, as often as they like, at DC 17 or their own DC, whichever is higher. So finally the question of balancing cantrips compared to Electric Arc is solved. Everyone just can carry around a dagger with this spellheart on it and gets Electric Arc. A level 1 Electric Arc deals an average of 6.5 damage (1d4 + 4), some spellcasters such as Druids can supplement this damage with weapons potentially adding a second attack for up to 7.5 (1d8 + 3) damage.

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This is, of course, very rough estimates, and the systems don't correspond 1:1. For example, the DPR of the PF2e electric arc increases fairly quickly against lower level enemies due to the lower saving throw values and increased crit chance, whereas that same 5e fire bolt with a DPR of 17.6 against a balor has a DPR of 19.8 against a CR 1/4 ...Familiars Source Player Core pg. 212 Familiars are mystically bonded creatures tied to your magic. Most familiars were originally animals, though the ritual of becoming a familiar makes them something more.You gain the Pet general feat, except that your pet has special abilities. Common choices for familiars include bats, cats, foxes, ravens, and snakes.Cover. SourceCore Rulebook pg. 477 4.0 When you're behind an obstacle that could block weapons, guard you against explosions, and make you harder to detect, you're behind cover. Standard cover gives you a +2 circumstance bonus to AC, to Reflex saves against area effects, and to Stealth checks to Hide, Sneak, or otherwise avoid detection."An arc of lightning leaps from one target to another." The arc can go from any point to any point within the range. In essence, it allows connecting any two squares … About Press Copyright Contact us Creators Advertise Developers Terms Privacy Policy & Safety How YouTube works Test new features NFL Sunday Ticket Press Copyright ... At level 3 it costs 60 gp, the price of a level 1 wand. And it allows any caster to cast Electric Arc, as often as they like, at DC 17 or their own DC, whichever is higher. So finally the question of balancing cantrips compared to Electric Arc is solved. Everyone just can carry around a dagger with this spellheart on it and gets Electric Arc.

electric arc + strike is not a very good comparison. You can cast down on a 1 action harm, so to compare it to a 3 action routine is apples to oranges. I do think burning the enemy action and getting an extra MAPless attack from even one real martial is leagues better than electric arc from a warpriest. Join us on for more discussion on discord.gg/pathfinder2e or f.starstone.gg. Mark Seifter On Electric Arc. Mark Seifter had some interesting takeaways on cantrip design as well as an acknowledgment and explanation for why Electric Arc is so far above the curve. Given the recent cantrip hullabaloo as well as cantrip balance being a cyclical ... Getting an innate electric arc through your ancestry is a good start. Human or Tengu have access to that, as do any ancestry that lets you pick a primal or arcane spell. Kitsune could also give you a ranged electric unarmed attack which you could flavor as coming from your instrument. Also consider Adopted Ancestry to double dip.Sonos has been releasing new hardware at a remarkably consistent and frequent pace the past couple of years, and what’s even more impressive is that these new releases are consiste...Mar 29, 2024 · Electric Arc : The gold standard of ranged attack cantrips. If you can target two enemies, this will easy outdo the initial damage of any other cantrip. In a long fight you might get more out of Persistent Damage from cantrips like Gouging Claw, but Electric Arc is consistent, reliable, and predictable. View All Spells ». You generate an arc of lightning between two targets. The lightning deals 1d6 points of electricity damage per caster level (maximum 15d6) to both targets and any creatures in a line connecting them. The spell fails if there is no line of effect between the targets. Lightning arc sets fire to combustibles and damages objects ...Spells. SourcePlayer Core pg. 297With special gestures and utterances, a spellcaster can call forth mystic energies, warp the mind, protect themself against danger, or even create something from nothing. Each class has its own method of learning, preparing, and casting spells, and every individual spell produces a specific effect, so learning ...EAvs2 means Electric Arc's average damage when there are two available targets in range, while EAvs1 is Electric Arc's average damage when there's only one target in range. Disrupt Undead Increased damage die (now deals 66% of EAvs2, 130% of EAvs1), now also applies enfeeble on a success to increase it's utility.You have tattoos on your body corresponding to one of the ancient Thassilonian schools of magic. Choose one of the following schools of magic: abjuration (), conjuration (), enchantment (), evocation (electric arc), illusion (ghost sound), necromancy (chill touch), or transmutation ().You can cast the associated cantrip (listed in parentheses) as an innate …Line of Sight. SourceCore Rulebook pg. 457 4.0 Some effects require you to have line of sight to your target. As long as you can precisely sense the area (as described in Perception on page 464) and it is not blocked by a solid barrier (as described in Cover on pages 476–477), you have line of sight. An area of darkness prevents line of sight ...

From cantrips alone you already get produce flame, ray of frost and Acid splash. With expanded, thats Electric arc too (this one might be worth solo casting thanks to the aoe). But this is already 4 damage types for hitting those weaknesses. And gouging claw is very spicy damage.

Multi-target save (Caustic Blast, Electric Arc, Scatter Scree, Timber) Multi-target atk (Slashing Gust) Single-target save (Daze, Frostbite, Vitality Lash, Void Warp) Single-target atk (Divine Lance, Ignition ranged, Needle Darts, Phase Bolt, TKP) Melee save (Gale Blast, Puff of Poison) Melee atk (Gouging Claw, Ignition melee)At this point you aren't just a tank but a damage machine. A typical combat at this point could look like: Round 1: Mountain Stance -> Stride -> Flurry. Round 2: Electric Arc -> Flurry (+1d4 electric) -> use reaction for Stand Still if you get the chance (+1d4 electric) Round 3: Flurry (still has the +1d4 electric from last turn) -> Raise ...Getting an innate electric arc through your ancestry is a good start. Human or Tengu have access to that, as do any ancestry that lets you pick a primal or arcane spell. Kitsune could also give you a ranged electric unarmed attack which you could flavor as coming from your instrument. Also consider Adopted Ancestry to double dip.It's basically a competition between an additional focus spell vs. some extra low level spells, and the value depends heavily on how much you are using the witch focus spells. You could also skip alchemist and fill in psychic instead: 2 - Psychic dedication. 4 - Basic psychic spellcasting. 6 - Psi development. SourceAdvanced Player's Guide pg. 78 2.0 You are the center of your own tiny tempest, ever surrounded by wind and rain that worsens the more you tap into your elemental powers. Even when you are calm and at rest, your hair and clothing are blown about by gentle winds, you are slightly damp, and your touch often comes with a static shock. 0:00 Intro1:38 Cleric basics4:30 Changed class features10:24 Buffing the warpriest including new feats!21:26 More feat changes27:42 Divine spell changes44:16...As DMW said, Electric Arc via Adapted Cantrip is a solid way to go. If that isn’t an option, you do have Divine Lance with an 18 Wisdom, but the benefit of EA is the multiple targets (2) that it can hit. ... Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Second Edition / Advice / New to PF2e AOA, Building a cleric : All Messageboards

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When an electric current crosses an air gap from an energized component to a grounded component, it produces a glowing plasma discharge known as an arc. For example, a bolt of lightening is a very large, powerful arc that crosses an atmospheric gap from an electrically charged cloud to the ground or another cloud.Feb 8, 2022 · Electric Arc is the strongest cantrip by far. It is an exceptional cantrip, no wonder it is the highest rated one in two spell guides and tied for first in the third: Resistance to electricity is not common. Multi-target but party friendly, even slotted spells are rarely better in this aspect. Familiars Source Player Core pg. 212 Familiars are mystically bonded creatures tied to your magic. Most familiars were originally animals, though the ritual of becoming a familiar makes them something more.You gain the Pet general feat, except that your pet has special abilities. Common choices for familiars include bats, cats, foxes, ravens, and snakes.Having tried the Magus in action, the main issue is the action economy. The simplest thing to do is changing spell strike to charge the spell a the weapon and do a strike has a free action. This way, if the hit misses, there is still a second attempt possible (with a -5) on the same turn. The cantrips are the bread and butter of the Magus, so ...Round 2: Electric Arc -> Flurry (+1d4 electric) -> use reaction for Stand Still if you get the chance (+1d4 electric) Round 3: Flurry (still has the +1d4 electric from last turn) -> …Introduction. Following the tradition established by DnD 3.5’s Duskblade, the Magus is a medium-armored hybrid martial caster. Their signature feature, Spellstrike, allows you to deliver spells at the end of a weapon, combining the damage of your weapon with the damage of a spell. However, in exchange for this exceptional martial capability ...Electric Arc Cantrip 1. Cantrip Concentrate Electricity Manipulate. Source Player Core pg. 328. Traditions arcane, primal. Cast [two-actions] Range 30 feet; Targets 1 or 2 creatures. Defense basic Reflex. An arc of lightning leaps from one target to another. Each target takes 2d4 electricity damage with a basic Reflex save.For example, fireball is a 3rd level spell that does 6d6 damage. The heightening is +1: 2d6. This means you can increase the level by one (to 4) to gain 2d6 damage, so a 4th level fireball does 8d6, and a 5th level fireball does 10d6. Some heightening is +2, like magic missile. 1st level MM shoots 1 dart per action.Mar 19, 2021 ... ... 28:43 · Go to channel · Is Electric Arc REALLY the Best Cantrip in Pathfinder 2e? Nonat1s (On Hiatus)•49K views · 54:36 · Go to cha...The shape of the yield curve has a good track record predicting recessions in America. It has a better track record than Nouriel Roubini, Paul Krugman, and many—if not most—high-pr...May 21, 2021 · Electric Arc is a must. Divine or Occult spellcasting is a must, so that it improves together with Ki spells. Wisdom is preferred, Charisma is acceptable. A 3rd and 4th attack with the bow are highly unlikely to hit. Or I could just take Focus Spells that do not care about my Wisdom, but I really like Ki Blast. ….

Human (of any heritage) Cloistered Cleric with Adapted Cantrip, choose whatever attack cantrip catches your fancy. Personally, I like Electric Arc and Telekinetic Projectile (post errata). One of the biggest issues with caster Clerics is the Divine list has no decent attack cantrips. Until that changes, this goes a long way toward fixing that ...The default theme for the Archives of Nethys, forged on the fires of CSS3. A variant of the Dark theme, with stronger color contrast. Light theme with purplish hues and a simpler font. The original alternate theme for the Archives of Nethys.Weapon After you cast an electricity spell by activating the coil, your Strikes with the weapon deal an additional 1d4 electricity damage until the end of your next turn. Activate …Create and format documents and homebrew content for Pathfinder Second Edition. (This website is not published, endorsed, or specifically approved by Paizo Inc.)If you want a proper gish Warpriest with a mix of martial and magical abilities, Gozreh makes for a decent option. You get the trident as a weapon, which is a solid and reliable option for sword-and-boarding, and also makes you look cool. You get lightning bolt at 5th level, which is a powerful blasting option which scales well.If you want a proper gish Warpriest with a mix of martial and magical abilities, Gozreh makes for a decent option. You get the trident as a weapon, which is a solid and reliable option for sword-and-boarding, and also makes you look cool. You get lightning bolt at 5th level, which is a powerful blasting option which scales well.With air, for instance, the L1 AOE does about the same damage as electric arc with 14 Cha, and it takes a 3rd action. The level 6 AOEs do a little more, but still have the action problem. Sticking with air, storm spiral does 3d12 (avg 19.5) compared to E arc at 3d4+3 (avg 10.5), but it takes twice as many actions, meaning that E arc is still ...If you are in the market for a staple gun, take a look at the best electric staple gun options for 2023 to find the right one for you. If you buy something through our links, we ma...Cantrips: Acid splash, detect magic, electric arc, light, mage hand, message, prestidigitation, ray of frost, read aura, and shield. 1st Level: Burning hands, color spray, … Pf2e electric arc, May 18, 2021 ... 28:43. Go to channel · Is Electric Arc REALLY the Best Cantrip in Pathfinder 2e? Nonat1s (On Hiatus)•49K views · 4:47:36. Go to channel ..., The best way to do that would be with a mix of Focus spells & Electric Arc I would say. Elemental Toss is one possiblity, but you also have a few good ones with Cleric (Fire Ray / Hurtling Stone / Draconic Barrage are the ones standing out), Fire/Storm Oracles could be interesting as well, Storm Druid has probably the best blast focus spells ..., Electric Arc requires a Reflex save. Reflex tends to be one of the higher saves and evasion can completely null this spell. Chill Touch is negative damage. One of the least common resistances. (I'm not even 100% sure if it is possible to get a resistance against it.)It only applies flat-footened or fleeing on an Undead target, but combined with ..., This video series is meant to help you understand the core concepts and rules in Pathfinder 2nd Edition and will give you tips and tricks along the way to ha..., While Gmail’s Archive feature enables you to preserve unimportant email messages without having to delete them, the lack of a separate folder for archived mail makes it confusing t..., Nov 5, 2021 ... ... 28:43 · Go to channel · Is Electric Arc REALLY the Best Cantrip in Pathfinder 2e? Nonat1s (On Hiatus)•49K views · 28:22 · Go to chan..., Sonos has been releasing new hardware at a remarkably consistent and frequent pace the past couple of years, and what’s even more impressive is that these new releases are consiste..., Easy Macro Generator (Pathfinder 2e & more) Macros make everything easier, but sometimes making macros can be a pain. The syntax can be confusing looking, and it all has to be done on one line, and iterating on one to get it just right can take forever. I wanted a better way to make my macros, so I made one!, Grabbed Legacy Content Source Core Rulebook pg. 620 4.0 You're held in place by another creature, giving you the flat-footed and immobilized conditions. If you attempt a manipulate action while grabbed, you must succeed at a DC 5 flat check or it is lost; roll the check after spending the action, but before any effects are applied., Line of Sight. SourceCore Rulebook pg. 457 4.0 Some effects require you to have line of sight to your target. As long as you can precisely sense the area (as described in Perception on page 464) and it is not blocked by a solid barrier (as described in Cover on pages 476–477), you have line of sight. An area of darkness prevents line of sight ..., Arcing Strikes (electricity) When a shock zombie hits a creature with a melee attack, an arc of lighting leaps to a second creature, dealing 1d12 electricity damage. This secondary target must be within 10 feet of the shock zombie's original target and must be the creature closest to the original target (if multiple creatures are equidistant ..., Human (of any heritage) Cloistered Cleric with Adapted Cantrip, choose whatever attack cantrip catches your fancy. Personally, I like Electric Arc and Telekinetic Projectile (post errata). One of the biggest issues with caster Clerics is the Divine list has no decent attack cantrips. Until that changes, this goes a long way toward fixing that ..., Legacy Content. Archetype SourceCore Rulebook pg. 230 4.0 Archetype Sorcerer Prerequisites Expert Sorcerer Spellcasting; legendary in Arcana, Nature, Occultism, or Religion, depending on bloodline You gain the master spellcasting benefits. You coax the magic power in your blood to manifest, accessing magic others don’t expect you to have., Description. Range 30 feet; Targets 1 or 2 creatures; Saving Throw basic Reflex; An arc of lightning leaps from one target to another. Applications You deal electricity damage equal to 1d4 plus your spellcasting ability modifier., Electric Arc requires a Reflex save. Reflex tends to be one of the higher saves and evasion can completely null this spell. Chill Touch is negative damage. One of the least common resistances. (I'm not even 100% sure if it is possible to get a resistance against it.)It only applies flat-footened or fleeing on an Undead target, but combined with ..., The Psychic, introduced originally in PF1’s Occult Adventures and brought into PF2 in Dark Archive, is an Occult spellcaster that plays a bit like the Sorcerer. The Psychic’s spellcasting emphasizes spell slots less than most full spellcasters, instead relying more heavily on spending Focus Points to “Amp” cantrips for additional effects., Prepare/allocate the spell to the relevant level (for spells that aren't a cantrip or focus spell) and then manually edit as required. If the spell is a cantrip, manually edit as required as you level up. In the example of the Electric Arc spell, drag a second d4 to the damage action details. , Electric Arc is a must. Divine or Occult spellcasting is a must, so that it improves together with Ki spells. Wisdom is preferred, Charisma is acceptable. A 3rd and 4th attack with the bow are highly unlikely to hit. Or I could just take Focus Spells that do not care about my Wisdom, but I really like Ki Blast., Obviously this isn't that strong with only a single target, but for the rather common two-target scenario this can be really good, and with infinite eye you can easily work in an unleashed electric arc followed by an omnidirectional scan or guidance (or whatever, they're all 1 action except detect magic), using your amp on support while still ..., About Press Copyright Contact us Creators Advertise Developers Press Copyright Contact us Creators Advertise Developers, Storm’s Lash: Electric Arc is a great offensive cantrip, but it’s an innate primal spell so you need both the Charisma to back it up and you need to advance your proficiency to keep it effective. Generally that means that this will only be effective for sorcerers with bloodlines which grant access to the Primal spell list. Tengu ..., About Press Copyright Contact us Creators Advertise Developers Terms Privacy Policy & Safety How YouTube works Test new features NFL Sunday Ticket Press Copyright ..., Electric Arc Cantrip 1. Cantrip Concentrate Electricity Manipulate. Source Player Core pg. 328. Traditions arcane, primal. Cast [two-actions] Range 30 feet; Targets 1 or 2 creatures. Defense basic Reflex. An arc of lightning leaps from one target to another. Each target takes 2d4 electricity damage with a basic Reflex save., PF2E's class design sometimes has a mismatch between developer and player expectations. As an example, in the Summoner playtest, many players expressed discontent with the Meld With Eidolon feat, saying it was far too weak to fulfill the fantasy of the Synthesist Summoner, which was a popular archetype for the class in PF1E where …, Introduction. Welcome to the remastered PF2. If you’re already playing PF2, you’re likely wondering what has changed in the remaster. In this article, we’ll describe rules changes and their implications. As we move forward with coverage of PF2 Remastered, we’ll label pre-remaster content as “Legacy” and post-remaster content as ..., PF2E just has awful support for someone who wants to play a blaster/damage caster. Reply reply Electric999999 • It can target two creatures and uses a save. ... Electric arc is just not a good option in many cases, and telekinetic projectile (or even spells like ray of frost and produce flame) is often better., A module for Foundry VTT pf2e system. Homebrew rebalance of post-remaster damaging cantrips. - Wonton77/pf2e-cantrip-rebalance. ... Make each cantrip viable (read: competitive with Electric Arc) in at least some situations; Make a more fair, consistent tradeoff for save (half damage on Success) vs attack roll (0 damage when …, Nov 27, 2023 · Make each cantrip viable (read: competitive with Electric Arc) in at least some situations; Make a more fair, consistent tradeoff for save (half damage on Success) vs attack roll (0 damage when you miss) Even out Heightening so relative balance does not change with level; Re-introduce 120ft range cantrips and increase the number of them , In the example of the Electric Arc spell, drag a second d4 to the damage action details. 4) The FG code tries to identify the actions that need to be created when a spell is added to the spell class on the actions tab. Paizo doesn't use the same language to describe repeatable effects (damage, heal, save, etc.) and sometimes the ruleset code ..., Example: An evocation wizard may still select electric arc as an evocation cantrip. They must use the new damage as printed in the Player Core . Wizards built using the Core Rulebook chassis may learn new spells printed in remastered books, but they can never treat them as having a school spell if they did not previously have one., Electric Arc Cantrip 1. cantrip; concentrate; electricity; manipulate; Traditions arcane, primal. Cast. Range 30 feet Targets 1 or 2 creatures. Defense basic Reflex. An arc of lightning leaps from one target to another. Each target takes 2d4 electricity damage with a basic Reflex save. Heightened (+1) The damage increases by 1d4. Elemental ..., In response to the Electric Arc PSA currently on the front page : r/Pathfinder2e.     Go to Pathfinder2e. r/Pathfinder2e. r/Pathfinder2e. A tabletop role-playing game community for everything related to Pathfinder Second Edition. Join us on for more discussion on discord.gg/pathfinder2e or f.starstone.gg. MembersOnline., Very tactical and one of the most fun experiences I have had in PF2e Reply reply ... First time as a caster, the damage felt good, phase bolt was underwhelming but electric arc wen used right lived up to the hype (did 30 damage to 2 zombies who crit failed 2d4 + 4 + 4). Having mobility felt like a good option to have, probably more so with more ...